Spacecraft of the future: view of the general designer



    A brief synopsis of a meeting with Viktor Khartov, General Designer of Roskosmos on automatic space complexes and systems, in the past, the general director of the NPO them. S.A.Lavochkina. The meeting was held at the Museum of Cosmonautics in Moscow, in the framework of the project “ Cosmos without Formulas ”.


    Full summary of the conversation.

    My function is to conduct a unified scientific technical policy. All my life I gave automatic space. I have some thoughts, I will share with you, and then your opinion is interesting.

    Automatic space is many-sided, and in it I would single out 3 parts.

    1st - applied, industrial space. These are communications, remote sensing of the Earth, meteorology, navigation. GLONASS, GPS is an artificial navigation field of the planet. The one who creates it does not receive any benefit, those who use it benefit.

    Shooting the Earth is a very commercial area. In this area, all the normal laws of the market. Satellites need to be done faster, cheaper and better.



    2nd part - the scientific space. The very edge of knowledge of humanity of the universe. Understand how it was formed 14 billion years ago, the laws of its development. How did the processes of the neighboring planets go, how to make the Earth not look like them?

    The baryonic matter that is around us - the Earth, the Sun, the nearest stars, galaxies - all this is only 4-5% of the total mass of the Universe. There is dark energy, dark matter. What we are the kings of nature, if all the known laws of physics are only by 4%. Now to this problem "dig a tunnel" from two sides. On the one hand: the Large Hadron Collider, on the other - astrophysics, through the study of stars and galaxies.

    My opinion is that now implanting the possibilities and resources of humanity on the same flight to Mars, to poison our planet with a cloud of launches, burning the ozone layer is not the right thing to do. It seems to me that we are in a hurry, trying to solve a problem with our own locomotive forces, on which we must work without fussing, with a full understanding of the nature of the Universe. Find the next layer of physics, new laws to overcome all this.

    How long will it last? It is unknown, but it is necessary to turn out data. And here the role of the cosmos is great. The same Hubble, working a lot of years, brings benefits, soon there will be a change of James Webb. What is the difference between the scientific cosmos cardinally - this is what a person already knows, you don’t need to do a second time. It is necessary to do the following and the following. Every time a new virgin - new bumps, new problems. Rarely scientific projects are made in the time planned. The world is quite calm about this, except for us. We have a law 44-FZ: if the project is not passed on time, then immediately the fines ruining the company.

    But we already fly " Radioastron", which will be 6 years old in July. A unique satellite. It has a 10-meter high-precision antenna. Its main feature is that it works together with ground-based radio telescopes, and in the interferometer mode, and very synchronously. Scientists just cry from happiness, especially Academician Nikolai Semenovich Kardashev, who in 1965 published an article in which he proved the possibility of this experience. They laughed at him, and now he is a happy man who conceived it and see the results right now.



    I would like to make our space program often happier scientists and ZAPU the rock is bigger than such advanced projects.

    The next Spectrum-RG is in the workshop, work is on. It will fly one and a half million kilometers from Earth to the L2 point, we will work there for the first time, waiting with a kind of trepidation.

    3rd part - “new space”. On new tasks in space for automata in near-earth orbit.

    Service in orbit. This is an inspection, modernization, repairs, refueling. The task is very interesting from the point of view of engineering, and it is interesting for the military, but it is economically very expensive, as long as the possibility of servicing exceeds the cost of the machine being serviced, this is therefore advisable for unique missions.

    When satellites fly as much as you want, two problems arise. The first - the devices are morally aging. The satellite is still alive, and the standards, protocols, diagrams, and so on have already changed on Earth. The second problem is running out of fuel.

    Fully digital payloads are being developed. By programming, they can change the modulation, protocols, destination. Instead of a communication satellite, an apparatus can become a repeater satellite. This topic is very interesting, I'm not talking about military use. It also reduces production costs. This is the first trend.

    The second trend is refueling, service. Experiments are already underway. Projects involve the maintenance of satellites that were made without taking this factor into account. In addition to refueling, the delivery of additional payload, quite autonomous, will also be worked out.



    The next trend is multi-satellite. Streams are constantly growing. M2M is added - this Internet of things, virtual presence systems, and much more. Everyone wants to use streams from mobile devices, with minimal latency. In a low orbit, satellite power requirements are reduced, and equipment volumes are reduced.

    SpaceX filed with the US Federal Communications Commission a request to create a system for 4,000 spacecraft for a global high-speed network. In 2018, OneWeb begins to deploy a system consisting of 648 satellites first. Recently expanded the project to 2000 satellites.



    Approximate the same picture is observed in the field of remote sensing - you need at any time to see any point on the planet, in the maximum number of spectra, with maximum details. It is necessary to place a fucking cloud of small satellites in a low orbit. And create a super archive where information will be dumped. This is not even an archive, but an updated model of the Earth. And any number of customers can take what they need.

    But the pictures - this is the first stage. Everyone needs processed data. This is an area where there is room for creativity - as from these pictures, in different spectra, to “wash” the application data.

    But what does a multi-satellite system mean? Satellites should be cheap. The satellite must be light. A factory with perfect logistics is tasked to produce 3 pieces per day. Now they are making one satellite per year or a year and a half. It is necessary to learn how to solve a target problem using the multi-satellite effect. When there are many satellites, they can solve the problem as one satellite, for example, to create a synthesized aperture, that’s how Radioastron.

    Another trend is the translation of any task into the plane of computational problems. For example, radar is in sharp contradiction with the idea of ​​a small light satellite, it needs power to send a send-and-other signal. There is only one way: the Earth is irradiated by a mass of vehicles - GLONASS, GPS, communication satellites. Everyone is shining on the Earth and something is reflected from it. And the one who learns to wash out useful data from this garbage will be the king of the mountain in this matter. This is a very difficult computational task. But it is worth it.

    And then, imagine: now all satellites are controlled, as with a Japanese toy [Tomagochi]. Everyone loves tele-command management method. But in the case of multi-satellite groupings, complete autonomy, network intelligence is required.

    Since the satellites are small, the question immediately arises: “is there so much garbage around the Earth”? Now there is an international garbage committee, where a recommendation has been adopted, stating that the satellite must de-orbit for 25 years. For satellites at an altitude of 300-400 km, this is normal, they slow down the atmosphere. And OneWeb devices will fly at an altitude of 1200 km, for hundreds of years.

    Fighting rubbish is a new application that made humanity itself. If the garbage is small, then it should be accumulated in some large network or in a porous piece that flies and absorbs small garbage. And if large garbage, then it is undeservedly called garbage. Mankind has spent money, the oxygen of the planet, brought into space the most valuable materials. Half of the happiness - it has already been taken out, so you can apply it there.

    There is such a utopia with which I am wearing, a certain model of a predator. An apparatus that reaches this valuable material in a kind of reactor turns it into a substance such as dust, and some of this dust is used in a giant 3D printer to create a part of itself similar in the future. This is still a distant future, but this idea solves the problem, because any pursuit of rubbish is the main curse - ballistics.

    We do not always feel that humanity is very limited in terms of maneuvers near the Earth. To change the inclination of the orbit, the height is a huge expenditure of energy. We are greatly spoiled by the life of a bright visualization of space. In movies, in toys, in "Star Wars", where people so freely fly here and there and everything, the air does not interfere with them. This “believable” visualization has done a disservice to our industry.

    I am very interested to know the opinion about the above. Because now in our institute we are conducting a company. I collected young people and said the same thing, and suggested that everyone write an essay on this topic. Our cosmos is flabby. Experience has been gained, but our laws, like chains on our feet, sometimes get in the way. On the one hand, they are written in blood, everything is clear, and on the other: 11 years after the launch of the first satellite, a man stepped on the moon! From 2006 to 2017 nothing has changed.

    Now there are objective reasons - all the physical laws have been worked out, all the fuel, materials, basic laws and all the technological reserves on the basis of them were applied in previous centuries, because No new physics. In addition, there is another factor. That was when Gagarin was let in, the risk was colossal. When the Americans flew to the moon, they themselves estimated that it was 70% percent of the risk, but then the system was such that ... It

    gave the right to make a mistake

    Yes. The system recognized that there was a risk, and there were people who put their future at stake. “I decide that the Moon is solid” and so on. Above them there was no mechanism that would prevent them from making such decisions. Now NASA is complaining "The bureaucracy has crushed everything." Built to fetish striving for 100% reliability, but this is an endless approximation. And no one can make a decision because: a) there are no such adventurers except Mask, b) mechanisms are created that do not give the right to risk. All are constrained by previous experience, which is materialized in the form of regulations, laws. And in this web space moves. The obvious breakthrough that has been in recent years is the same Ilon Musk.

    My speculation is based on some data: it was NASA's decision to grow a company that would not be afraid to take risks. Ilon Mask sometimes gets confused, but does business and moves forward.

    From what you told, what is being developed in Russia now?

    We have the Federal Space Program and it has two goals. The first is to meet the needs of federal executive bodies. The second part is the scientific space. This is "Spectrum-WG." And after 40 years we must once again learn how to return to the moon.

    To the moon why this renaissance? Yes, because on the moon near the poles noticed some amount of water. Checking that there is water is the most important task. There is a version that its comets have been hauled in for millions of years, then it is especially interesting, because comets come from other star systems.

    Together with the Europeans, we are implementing the ExoMars program. It was the start of the first mission, we had already flown, and the Schiaparelli was safely shattered into smithereens. We are waiting for mission number 2 to arrive there. 2020 year start. When two civilizations collide in the close "kitchen" of one apparatus, there are many problems, but it has already become easier. Learned to work in a team.

    In general, the scientific space is the field where humanity needs to work together. It is very expensive, it does not give profit, and therefore it is extremely important to learn how to add strength to financial, technical and intellectual.

    It turns out all the tasks of the PCF are solved in the modern paradigm of the production of space technology.

    Yes. Exactly. And until 2025- this is the interval of action of this program. There are no specific projects of a new class. There is an agreement with the leadership of Roskosmos, if the project is brought to a plausible level, then we will raise the issue of inclusion in the federal program. But what is the difference: we all have a desire to fall to the budget money, and in the USA there are people who are ready to invest their money in such a thing. I understand that this is a voice crying in the desert: where are our oligarchs who invest in such systems? But without waiting for them, we are starting work.

    I believe that here it is just necessary to click two cry. First, look for such breakthrough projects, teams that are ready to implement them and are ready to invest in them.

    I know that there are such commands. We consult with them. Together we help them to come to the realization.

    Is a radio telescope planned on the moon? And the second question is about space junk and the Kesler effect. This task is relevant, and are any measures planned to be taken on this issue?

    I'll start with the last question. I said that humanity takes this very seriously, because it created a garbage committee. Satellites need to be able to reduce from orbit or divert to safe ones. And so you need to make reliable satellites, so that they "do not die." And ahead are such futuristic projects, about which I spoke earlier: Big sponge, “predator”, etc.

    "Mina" can work in the event of some kind of conflict, if hostilities go into space. Therefore, it is necessary to fight for peace in space.

    The second part of the question about the moon and radio telescope.

    Yes. The moon is cool on one side. It seems to be in a vacuum, but around it there is some dust exosphere. The dust there is extremely aggressive. What kind of tasks can be solved from the moon - it is still necessary to understand. It is not necessary to put a huge mirror. There is a project - the ship goes down and “cockroaches” run from it in different directions, which are dragged by cables, and the result is a large radio antenna. A number of such projects of lunar radio telescopes are walking, but first of all you need to study and understand it.

    A couple of years ago, Rosatom announced that it was preparing a nearly draft design of a nuclear propulsion system for flights, including for Mars. Is this topic developing or frozen?

    Yes, she is coming. This is the creation of a transport and energy module, TEM. There is a reactor and the system converts its thermal energy into electrical energy, and very powerful ion engines are involved. There are about a dozen of key technologies, here we are working. Very significant progress has been made. The design of the reactor is almost completely clear, and very powerful ion engines of 30 kW each have been created. Recently saw them in the chamber, is working out. But the main curse is warm, it is necessary to reset 600 kW - that is still a task! Radiators under 1000 sq. M. Now they are working on finding other approaches. These are drip refrigerators, but they are still in the early phase.

    Approximately have any dates?

    Demonstrator going somewhere in the range before 2025 to run. There is such a task. But it depends on a few key technologies for which there is a lag.

    The question is probably half a day, but what are your thoughts about the electromagnetic bucket?

    I know about this engine. I told you that since I learned that there is dark energy and dark matter, I stopped completely based on a high school physics textbook. The Germans made experiments, they are an exact people, and they saw that there is an effect. And this is completely contrary to my higher education. In Russia, they once did an experiment on the Yubileiny satellite with an engine without mass debris. Were for, were against. After the tests, both sides received the strongest confirmation of their correctness.

    When the first Electro-L was launched, there were complaints in the press, the same meteorologists, that the satellite does not meet their needs, i.e. the satellite was scolded before it broke.



    He was supposed to work in 10 spectra. Regarding the spectra, in 3, in my opinion, the quality of the picture was not the one that comes from western satellites. Our users are accustomed to fully marketable products. If there were no other pictures, then meteorologists would be happy. The second satellite has been substantially improved, the mathematics has been improved, so now they seem to be satisfied.

    Continuation of "Phobos-Grunt" "Boomerang" - will it be a new project or will it be a repetition?

    When they did Phobos-Grunt, I was the director of the NPO named after S.A. Lavochkin. This is the example when the number of new exceeds a reasonable limit. Unfortunately, there was not enough intelligence to take everything into account. The mission must be repeated, in particular because it brings the return of the ground from Mars. The backlog will be applied, ideological, ballistic calculations and so on. And so, the technique should be different. On the basis of these backlogs, which we will get on the moon, on something else ... Where there will already be parts that will reduce the technical risks of a complete innovation.



    By the way, do you know that the Japanese are going to realize their Phobos-Grunt?

    They do not know yet that Phobos is a very terrible place, everyone dies there.

    They had experience with Mars. And there, too, a lot of things died.

    Same mars. Until 2002, the States and Europe seemed to have 4 unsuccessful attempts to get to Mars. But they showed American character, and every year bullets and learned. Now they are doing extremely beautiful things. I was in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at the landing of the Curiosity rover . By that time, we had already ruined Phobos. This is where I cried, practically: their satellites have been flying around Mars for a long time. They built this mission in such a way that a photo of a parachute that opened during the landing process came. Those. they were able to receive data from their satellite. But this path is not easy. They had several failed missions. But they continued and now have achieved some success.



    The mission they broke was Mars Polar Lander. Their reason for the failure of the mission was “underfunding”. Those. the state services looked and said, we didn’t give you any money, we are to blame. It seems to me that this is almost impossible in our realities.

    Not that word. We need to find a specific culprit. On Mars, we need to catch up. Of course there is still Venus, which is still considered the Russian or Soviet planet. Now serious negotiations are underway with the United States to make a mission to Venus together. The United States wants high-temperature electronics landing modules that will operate normally at high degrees without thermal protection. You can make balloons or a plane. An interesting project.

    We express gratitude to the Moscow Museum of Cosmonautics for the opportunity to meet, and the popular science portalIndicator for video and broadcast.

    The next meeting, Cosmos without Formulas, on Thursday May 25 will be devoted to manned space stations. Expert - Vladimir Branets . The conversation promises to be very informative.
    Venue: Museum of Cosmonautics.
    Time: May 25, Thursday 18:30.

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