Russian VR market: why not

    Recently, I decided to try myself in the role of Yuri Dude and take an interview. True, money will not be there. Well, almost ... Join the conversation with Alexander Boronin, the founder of the Teleport Group and the head of VR / AR-coworking VRlab. Let's talk about venture, acceleration and synergy. By the way, we also have a short version for 12 minutes. Link to it under the cut!

    What do you think of VR? Share your opinion in the comments.

    Short version

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    Tell us what VRlab is and why VR startups come there, what they do there and why you need it.

    VRlab is currently the largest coworking for VR, AR, MR projects in Russia. We have a lot of space, there is a testing zone, now we are launching a separate studio. And all this was born from the hypothesis that if teams that work in the same direction are connected in one space, the synergy effect arises. There is an opportunity to share some ideas, quickly work out hypotheses. That is, this is the space in which the project can be launched and created much faster. We create quite a lot for this ... We create a certain number of solutions that contribute to this.

    That is, the idea was confirmed? Indeed, it turns out more efficient?

    It turns out more efficiently, the only thing is that it still requires certain changes. That is, we started with the hypothesis that we have a lot of individual startups, companies that make product decisions. Since May, we have been looking at this hypothesis. Now I realized for myself that basically we still have studio projects. That is, they differ from food products in that they do not go in a specific direction, but work more under current market demands.

    In general, the VR market in Russia, these are more studio projects, as you call them, or some platform solutions, product ones?

    At the moment, these are more studio projects. That is, teams sometimes have some kind of hypothesis regarding products, but there are large teams that are already experienced. And some of them immediately go to the product. There are large teams that immediately work in a studio format. And they just keep doing it.

    Small teams can initially focus on the fact that they go to the product, but then the moment arises that the money has run out, or some customer said that “guys, you have a cool product, but I can do this.” And this is very different, and since it is just for the teams that they can earn and do something relatively different, they most often agree to this. And it is vital. Like any startup, no one ever knows why they actually started doing what they started.

    How many VRlab residents are there?

    In VRlab there are now about 20 different residents and about 12 more non-permanent residents. We have different tasks.

    How much do you grow every year now?

    Each year it is very difficult for us to respond.

    In your understanding, how many residents will be in a year, in three years?

    I think that we will fill at the level of 35-40 total residents, because the teams are different. There are teams of 20 people, there are teams of 2-3 people. There are teams in which ... mostly founders, several programmers work for us, and they have the rest of the team, it is generally remotely distributed throughout Russia or even beyond its borders.

    Do you invest in projects? Find investors? How do you help them develop beyond providing the site and synergy with other teams?

    We help them find investments. Often, teams are not ready to communicate normally with venture investment funds. That is, we have regular expert days. We ask either the Korolev, who manages part of the portfolio, to communicate with the teams and give them honest feedback on what is going on with them.

    In individual projects, we try to immediately contact them with large market players, so that some pilots start up faster. Sometimes we go differently, that is, we go out to large Russian players, companies, collect feedback from them regarding their tasks, which they see with new solution technologies. And already find them ...

    Which companies, for example? Who are you going to? Who are these large customers?

    Now we are directly communicating with Severstal, we have identified solutions that may be interesting at different divisions of the holding, from solutions that workshop engineers can use, augmented reality, to options for prototyping virtual reality and, say, marketing tasks that the team also has set. That is, these are diverse solutions. Accordingly, now we are at the stage of choosing the pilot options for Severstal together with the teams. Well, we are discussing these issues.

    How much do big business think about VR, about augmented reality?

    How ready are large customers to use these technologies? All very large companies almost had some experience in implementing VR-technologies. Most often, these were some marketing decisions at the first level. That is, the first levels of some kind of innovative stands, solutions, that's all. This is already good for the market, because there is some experience.

    Now comes the next step - penetration. That is, it is already integration into the production process. And now VR is slowly starting to be implemented at the level of a certain value.

    That is, for example, the Sibur company is already laying a tender for the creation of simulators in virtual reality in annual tasks. Because they have some kind of substation there 200 kilometers from Surgut that must be repaired every two years. And teams, repair teams that already understand how to repair it, it can completely disband in two years. Disabling it for 3-4 days at a cost to the company will cost much more than creating a simulator and training several repair teams, then so that it can learn how to work with them, for example.

    In your opinion, what is the trend in corporate education, so to speak? These are VR mock-ups, VR-stands that you can learn from, or are they real-time explanations in augmented reality, what should you do right now?

    Not in augmented reality, but rather in virtual reality. Because, I believe that the trend is real simulations that can now be done at a fairly high level in VR. That is, the guys from Cerevrum, they have Natasha Phloxy, who is now engaged in a skill hub. And they have a very high level of dialogue.

    Indeed, some things that an average level employee needs to know by heart can be brought to perfection in the mode of this dialogue simulation, then to a very high level of understanding, feedback, and even see how a person is at the HR level in principle, reacts to certain moments, what things he notices, how he communicates. That is, this is a rather interesting level of mining. And in principle, replacing the time of a real specialist, who also needs to be pumped.

    But in principle, what is your share of those who are engaged in virtual reality, what is the proportion of those who are engaged in augmented?

    Now there are more companies and teams that are engaged in virtual reality. Augmented reality now also has a question of value itself. ARKit came out, ARCore came out, but fundamentally it’s still a very big question to get people to look at the world on a daily basis through a mobile screen or through a tablet, so that at the same time it gives some significant value.

    That is, there are now more projects that are developing in VR. In AR, this is still more of a demonstration effect. That is, he is now slowly starting to connect with AI-technologies, IoT technologies. There is a project that is now being integrated into Auchan into warehouses in order to ... This is in the format of augmented reality glasses such as Glass Epson ... so that workers can quickly and efficiently implement their linear tasks in the warehouse, there are fewer solutions, so there are no losses Logistics was better built.

    That is, the krupnyaki are now introducing it all, because they have the task, first of all, to increase their coefficients for a number of points, to reduce costs. And, in principle, technologies for this are being created. But now it's all in pilot mode. That is, although even taking the same augmented reality, Google has already carried out many implementations, integrations into large companies directly on their Google Glass, and have proved in a number of ways that it is effective and profitable.

    You can tell some examples of such implementations that Google conducted, for example.

    Google conducted examples precisely on logistics companies, accurately conducted sales on repair companies. That is a beautiful example, when the instructions for the engineer before - it was shown a huge number of books, brochures, solutions, and now - Google Glass. That is, access to information has become much easier, and this happens in real time. But at the same time, Google Glass is used simply as a means to view the text? This is a wearable screen, this is a wearable screen, it is to look at texts.

    Do they not interact with the environment?

    Not at the moment. Because there are cases using Hololens, when directly on real stands, on some real complex mechanisms, additional information appears that needs to be done, the instruction “unscrew this, turn here, do it”. You do not need to do the instruction in principle, it appears directly on ... There are guys, our colleagues, who have gone quite far in this direction.

    I liked their case from Murmansk, when on a real construction site somewhere in Murmansk, at least I don’t know how far from Murmansk, you can see there is only a foundation. And then you can see in Hololens how a specific construction object will be located, there bim-schemes are loaded, utilities. And you can watch through the layers of how it will all be displayed directly on the site. As far as I saw this case, it also allows you to control the construction process itself. That is, you can superimpose this 3D object on what has already been built, see if it is different ... if there are any deviations, whether everything is built exactly as intended. And this is a specific value.

    That is, now there are cool technologies in VR, there are cool technologies of augmented reality. And the question now is the interaction of developers and the real market. That is, to find exactly this value, it was confirmed and, from the point of view of implementation, it was justified. And this is a very lively process, because now it involves individual groups within corporations. That is, corporations take and implement, create some kind of innovation introduction department, they interact with real departments, interact with developers. And somewhere here this work is going on to create specific solutions. VRLab, as I understand it, monitors, as far as possible, the entire VR-development market in Russia, looking for interesting teams.

    How many people now in Russia are now developing for VR?

    I would name a total of about 300 teams that are doing something in this direction. If you take quite serious firms, companies, then these are 40-50 companies. Of these, 20, as I understand it, works for you. 20 is not constant ... Part is constant, part is not constant, but yes, they work, work with us.

    And where, besides Moscow, are there such hubs where VR is developing?

    Now a small hub will be opened in St. Petersburg at the guys in the Gazholder one. In principle, in St. Petersburg there are about 5-7 strong teams that make decisions gaming and non-gaming in virtual reality. There are a number of teams in Kazan. There is a fairly large company, 50 people develop both game solutions and market solutions. In Yekaterinburg there is XLab company, they make cool classroom simulators, solutions. UniGine guys are generally sitting in Tomsk, making their own engine and doing it under VR.

    That is, they have an interesting solution in terms of graphics quality. By the way, if we talk about our engines, to what extent such solutions of our developers are successful not only in the Russian market, but also abroad. There are not many examples. UniGine somehow normally move towards the world market. But to them, again ... Yet it depends on whether the guys are able to sell, or not. Naturally. That is, the solution here may be excellent, but if there is no direct access to the market and a well-developed sales methodology, all this remains very local and is implemented very locally in the same way.

    Are you helping VRLab help people enter foreign markets, or are you still focusing on Russian customers?

    We will be launching a tracking program in November, because having passed a large number of companies and teams through ourselves, we are striving ... we realized that one of the values ​​that we can provide is ... or we bring the teams to a product solution that can ... a product solution that interacts with the market. And that goes for repeat sales.

    That is, the hypothesis was confirmed. A lead generation or sales system is set up, and they can some kind of system ... they take some product from their studio team, disconnect it and put it into a product that interacts separately with the market. Or it’s already a decision, an idea, a technology that can be brought to the level when it is interesting for venture companies and venture investments. There are a number of criteria. And this also needs to be reached.

    That is, to pack correctly, to submit oneself correctly, to work out a hypothesis and to reach some understandable level. Here we work, since we have the parent company "Workshop". The "Workshop" has a number of educational courses, including the preparation of trackers. Here we can form a sufficiently strong team that may not immediately work with the entire market, but we will take 10 teams in this direction and will develop it. And tell me, what technologies are more often used in B-to-B projects: mobile VR, Oculus, connected glasses.

    What is now demanded by the market?

    From the point of view of demand, it is very difficult to say, because now there are still single moments of implementation. Sber, for example, has now purchased for a hundred Samsung Gerviar and Samsung 7 for just the guys and Cerevrum to conduct interactive simulations. They made interesting empathy cases for 360. But at the same time, everyone who is developing something for mobile phones is waiting for Oculus Go, because now the purchase price of Gerviar + S7, S8 is from 500 to 1000 dollars. Oculus Go will be released - it will be $ 200. And it will be much easier. Because for large corporations, the very moment of procurement is a big pain.

    Are there examples of introducing the opposite of glasses connected to laptops, to desktops?

    The same Sibur is holding a tender right now, and they already have HTC Vive and a computer with a 1060 graphics card in the terms of reference. That is, companies already understand something about this, I don’t know who writes it all to them. Sometimes you come to a large company, wonder how you even know about technology. Or sometimes they think they understand. Sometimes they think they understand. Yes, I have some moments ...


    Correct, convince.

    Often you have to convince the customer that initially they do not look at tasks correctly?

    Constantly. This is constantly happening, because there are always nuances. And more often than not, the dialogue "is it possible, we want it, we want it." And here is the difficulty. In virtual reality, in principle, you can do everything that they come up with, any Wishlist can be implemented.

    There is a question of graphics, some of these points, they are already applied. But there are effective solutions that can be developed in 3, 2 or a month or in half a year, but there are solutions that they will come up with, for example, they are technologically not all comparable to each other. And here you have to convince that it is better to start with something simpler and progressively moving, receiving feedback from their employees, from the results of intermediate implementations, that is, in a few steps. Achieving results. As you know, just a week ago we launched Windows Mixed Reality, devices appeared in stores.

    Your opinion, this will somehow affect the VR market, affect the distribution of this among users, on understanding among customers?

    The main question is how this will be extended. Microsoft has a lot of its internal leverage in foreign markets. That is, basic Windows is in almost all companies. Accordingly, business communications have already been established, and this is certainly a huge plus. Plus, there is certification, because for a number of companies this is a stumbling block regarding implementation. And, again, the cost.

    That is, it is easier, it is more convenient. I think that this should be interesting for the developer, because here, again, something like synergy may arise that they create something useful. And this is being jointly implemented immediately. That is, it is more massive, because there is already some sort of streamlined product for implementation and implementation.

    In your opinion, how many developers even know that a beta platform has appeared?

    Everyone knows, everyone who does something relatively consciously in VR. Now there is no such huge avalanche of news, as if, for example, we talked with you about mobile games. That is, you can imagine how many mobile games there fly every day on the side ... tens of thousands. Here now there is already some large, large number of projects that are coming out, but I think that this, first of all, will be applied in the B-to-B segment.

    B-to-B cases are all fine, beautifully designed, integrated. And we, in principle, know who does what. That is, from the point of view of transferring relatively ready-made solutions, I do not see big problems here. That is, even if they now exist, for a couple of three months all solutions for the main gaming major platforms will be added, and this will all be quietly ported and implemented. A separate question is how convenient it will be all inside the helmet.

    That is how developers will feel themselves inside, how customers will feel themselves. That is, if it’s all about tracking, everything will work at the level of other major solutions (Oculus, Vive), I think it’s very competitive. Because for companies that buy something and they need to equip a cluster of 10-20 bundles of computer + VR helmet, they will 100% look at the cost. And in terms of cost there is a big advantage, and in terms of quality, I think it will be good. Something comparable. Something comparable, yes.

    Do you have any consumer-oriented B-to-C projects?

    Something interesting in this area? B-to-C projects now ... There are guys from Rostov. We have them ... That is, we are with some teams ... Some teams we sit down, some teams, let's say, which work in the regions, we just provide them with a platform for the presentation of solutions. That is, they come to Moscow, they only need to hold a presentation for the client. They carry it out at our site, in our testing area. And there are Yode Group guys, in my opinion, they have now passed a whole little step together with the entire market.

    Together with Dixi, they did the project “Look at the dinosaur,” it seems to be called that. And that is, in every Dixi for a purchase of 400 rubles stickers are given, a special application is loaded and this is immediately augmented reality with dinosaurs. And there are sold virtual reality glasses for the usual cardboard. And, accordingly, it is still immediately virtual reality for children. That is, it is both augmented reality and virtual reality, they teach everyone, the whole market, that there are such technologies. They work with cool kids bloggers. They realized that this is a huge amount of information that there are children in YouTube who have 20-30 million subscribers. They directly carry out detailed reviews: "Look, what a cool thing came out."

    Everyone is watching ... The children's market is a separate big decision. This is a market that in 5 years will become our main customer. Yes, in the coming years, exactly in the coming years. That is, interesting gaming solutions that are produced. We are doing it separately now, next week we will be filming artists of the Mariinsky Theater. For a whole year they did not have the opportunity to dock on the shooting schedule, but we will be doing a ballet dancer. He will dance the same party that Vaclav Nizhinsky, the legend of the imperial Russian ballet, danced almost a hundred-plus years ago. And we will shoot and do it all on the mocap, based on this, let's say, a historical video, with full immersion in 1913, with the possibility of appearing on the stage of the theater.

    What do you use besides the glasses and phones themselves? What devices do you have in VRLab?

    We now have glasses. These are sports glasses with ... also with a display, as in Google Glass. We are thinking about buying Meta2. These are also augmented reality glasses, which now do not work very clearly with tracking. That is, the guys have them, and there is an opportunity to test. That is, we are now basically working with the market in terms of level ... do any of our residents have one or even they just contact us that “we need some piece of iron”, we basically get it out within a day or two. That is, such “sharing economy” within the market. VR market. Yes. Everything that is base used, we have.

    Cameras for tracking movements?

    Cameras for tracking movements, with 12 VICON cameras, wildly expensive. Now we were thinking right inside the laboratory to build a separate space that would quickly transform into a tracking zone. As a result, we rented a separate space in the same building. We are staffing it now. That is, we will have a platform for 80 meters for high-precision tracking, or tracking 5 people at a time, or for recording full body animations, also up to 5 people at a time.

    That is, you need all this more for content production, or there really are some technological solutions that your residents develop for tracking, according to ... Basically, these are opportunities, because if there is no possibility, then practically nothing will be developed in this direction. That is, is it more such a purchase for the future?

    This is a purchase for future use. Part of our ... Parts of the teams are interesting. This is an opportunity to simulate multiplayer work. That is, VR is also developing, and it gives just the top opportunities for specific developments that are already there. Without this equipment, respectively, they would not even think in this direction, because there is now the current level, we will be at that level. Because to buy your own mocap studio or rent it regularly is not always feasible and meaningful in the market. If you talk with the guys and listen to what they say about investing in VR, they usually say that "we believe that it makes sense to invest in platforms, and everything else is not interesting."

    You, as I understand it, your experience shows that in order to develop platforms, you need those people who are not interested in them. Can you somehow explain how this happens?

    It is precisely on this score that you are either developing a technology or developing a product, a platform that is moving and actively developing in a specific direction. If the team works half the time for the platform, half the time for studio work relative to the market, this is not enough focus to ... Anyway, this is an internal startup. Startup should be focused.

    Accordingly, if a representative comes to the team and sees that for a month she works in one mode, and then in another mode, they have an understanding that she may not reach the result that the venture fund needs. And, accordingly, now for this we will be internal tracking and running in order to bring the teams at least to the level and preparation, when they will be interesting, when they can already receive a grant from the same Skolkovo, with which we also work. Lyosha Kolenchuk is also actively looking for projects.

    But are these platform solutions still?

    Not always platform. It does not have to be a platform. It may just be a technology that solves a problem. For example, a VR helmet that solves a narrow medical program related, say, to ophthalmology and, say, which can simultaneously diagnose early stages of neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson and Alzheimer using the same technology. That is, it simply will simply fix the speed of the pupil and that’s all. And this technology, it is narrow. She is understandable.

    And it will work with the market. It is not necessary to build ten more entities around it. That is, this is enough. And the teams have a lot ... That is, VR teams, basically, are guys who are talented developers, maybe someone business is. But, often, this is a team of 3-4 people, mainly programmers, modelers who understand how to do something in the ground engine. But they are with the real market ... Well, it is often difficult for them to communicate and communicate. And for them, the whole revelation is that you guys need to pack properly, you need to learn how to sell yourself and the product.

    Usually, after they begin to communicate with you, does a special person appear who finally begins to think about it? Or, nevertheless, they themselves transform their consciousness?

    It’s best when they transform themselves. That is, when developers themselves understand that they need to change and transform in order to conduct business, and go to some new level of understanding of both what they are doing inside, and the principles of how they do it, and where they need to move.

    We touched on the topic that there are many tasks on hardware. Among your teams, more are still doing the software part or the hardware?

    We have practically no hardware teams inside.

    And something interesting in general in Russia on the topic of hardware development ... can you tell some examples?

    The coolest team now is Antilatency. That is, if you take the world level, then they for the world have made the coolest tracker for mobile VR-helmets at the moment. That is a spatial tracker. They have been doing this for a long time. In the year 2012, they, in my opinion, first made a holographic table, where the typical principle of technology was already being implemented. They accumulated many competencies in this area. They have cool mathematicians, they understand very well how data is transmitted and how to work with delays. And they implemented the device.

    And here the criteria is that they brought him to the conference, and it's cool everywhere. Everywhere cool, wow everywhere. In Russia, about five, probably, different systems are being created now: gloves, there are full mocap costumes. But the main question is how they will enter the global market and work with it. There are cool Teslasuit guys in Minsk. That is, they have gone even further in terms of technology connection. They have one of the coolest global marketing. They are not something that throws a lot of money or decisions there, they simply interact very correctly with the market.

    By the way, about Teslasuit, have you tried it on yourself?

    No, I have not climbed, honestly. We plan, we agreed with the guys that we will bring it to the lab and help them interact directly with the developers. That is, I think that I will still sit in it and play enough. But, first of all, this is still this technology, this is a concept and this is the creation of a certain value within the framework of the direction.

    Let's comment a little for our viewers.

    Teslasuit is developing a special costume that allows you to not only track the movement of a person, but also give him feedback, using electric impulses creating the sensations that should happen to the character at the moment. Even create, say, some kind of temperature environment, that is, cooling, warming. That is, they are aimed at achieving the maximum level of immersion, the level of immersion in the virtual world, so that there is no longer any difference, that is, it’s cool to deceive our brain.

    By the way, about cool deceptions. VR itself is no longer a hype theme, but what’s called full immersion VR, with full immersion, is what really excites everyone now. What interesting technologies on this subject have you seen lately. Now all this is developing, first of all, at the level of ... What are we fooling?

    What are you kidding? Yes. Yes, the brain is very simply deceived. In principle, at the level of vision, that is, standard Vive, standard Microsoft. 5-7 minutes, we change several locations - and a person internally feels himself in the third, he already interacts with it. That is, the brain is already deceived at a basic level. When he begins to see his legs already, to see his hands more clearly and still receives some kind of feedback from the outside world, just the level of immersion is still intensifying.

    Then the main question is - why? That is, why carry out a simulation of this level? Now everything will jump quite a bit thanks to the new Vive terkers. They will release the next one, and it will already be possible to make entire spatial zones more difficult to do and, say, add real objects. And now there is implemented quite a simple integrated system of full body tracking, when Vive trackers cling to the main bones of a person.

    That is, it will lead to a new level of distribution. Because Vive is a lot, light update trackers are not very expensive, and the basic content for it is already written and implemented. Amusement rides will grow on their own, like a training ground, and global solutions, but this is more, again, entertaining solutions. Now there are a number of interesting medical projects, because, from the point of view of medicine, the development of some kind of nerve and nerve endings in paralyzed people, post-stroke patients, post-traumatic rehabilitation, this is a separate large market that will definitely work.

    Since conducting standard rehabilitation solutions in the centers or producing it in VR, I think that the second one will also gain popularity, because once having digitized a process, it can already be scalable, and the cost of implementation is not that big one. Apparently, for the patient, the cost will decrease. And it’s very cool for the patient, because he ... the brain is deceived, the pain threshold is much lower than in real life, and due to interesting internal interaction mechanics, much faster progress can be achieved.

    There are guys from Cyber ​​Russia who work with a paralyzed guy who programs on Unity. It is vital for him to work well. And he works on his paralyzed legs, that is, he launches pulses through VR there. That is, it is working on nerve endings. A very beautiful example, which is quite revealing. I really want the guy in the next couple of years to really get up, work, start walking. Really interesting project. I hope that in the near future we will see how people with the help of new technologies regain their physical capabilities. And health. And health.

    Do you think we'll see eSports in VR soon? How long does it take for this to become something watchable?

    I think that at least four years must pass for this. A year ago there was just a conference in St. Petersburg, and there the guy, the owner of a small space where they provide access to VR games, started talking about e-sports. I simply asked him: “My friend, how many athletes do you have? One? Five? How massive is this phenomenon? ”

    Esports became widespread when there are free games and many devices, many users. Then cybersportsmen are formed in some independent way. That is, these are people who really spend tens of thousands of hours in some kind of toy, achieve a level of skill in relation to others, and they have someone to fight with. Plus - it's beautiful to pack, move. They have an audience in itself that watches them. Yes Yes. Because there are really a lot of people who have tried this.

    Moreover, now there is already ... Probably the most technologically advanced VR team in Russia, it is, after all, now VRTech. They are now aiming at fully immersive esports multiplayer. That is, they went to Tokyo now and showed some of their decisions. And will we all be watching this in VR too? Or, nevertheless, we will watch it ... Everywhere. That is, for example, the same e-sports can already be viewed in VR, it is already broadcast directly to VR. That is, you can sit in VR and watch the guys play there. From one of the characters who run?

    What I personally saw is still a side view, that is, how it is usually done. I think that since the usual game engine is used there, the switching level is not very difficult. The only thing, under VR, respectively, so that it is watchable, you need to sort through the main engine. That is, it will very quickly come to the point that at first we will most likely look through the eyes of the player who is playing, look at his actions, or watch from the side, and then this will be integrated at the level of playing it.

    Do you have any game projects that are interesting in the portfolio among residents?

    There are no gaming projects so far. Now we are talking with the guys who make the platform just multiplayer for Vive. That is, for the time being, VR, after all, is a single player. Even among the world's major studios, multiplayer is usually poorly implemented. Again, there is an understanding that VR should be a communications platform. And now everything is moving in this direction. It’s just that now Russian teams are mainly focused on either making a product that will be thrown on Steam or GooglePlay, and there to make money. Multiplayer solutions now will not give it.

    Are multiplayer solutions, first of all, some solutions for business, probably now?

    For business where they are needed. Either this is the amusement park itself, or the team plays at the same time. There are amusement parks where large spatial solutions with cracking hats, some separate objects, they now all the same still think a little bit in individual cases, there are quite funny problems around this. But in the near future, I think the guys will advance quickly and correct these decisions.

    That is, technologies are developing rapidly, bugs are being fixed, engines are also being updated for the tasks that developers have. And relative to a year ago, we have moved far enough. Anyway, I see the main market - this is 19-20-21, when it will become really massive.

    That is, all the same, now the same VR devices are mainly among developers, around developers and around those who provide access to content and VR for the masses. We can’t come to every second or third friend of our age and such “oh, you also have VR”, like a helmet. This is the exception rather than the rule. When it becomes at a distribution level like the PlayStation, it jumps a lot.

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