Pride and Prejudice: Women in IT

We did not lose time - on March 8 we discussed with four women programmers from DataArt the choice of a profession and gender prejudices in it, the struggle for equal rights in IT and the jokes of male colleagues.

When did you decide to become an engineer?

Ekaterina Shalapanova, Delivery Manager, St. Petersburg: “I was never going to be an“ engineer, I wanted to be a “programmer”. She wanted to become a programmer at the age of 10, when a computer class appeared in our school (UK-NTs with a Bulgarian layout, who remembers). I was in fourth grade at that time, and we were not yet allowed into computers, but the open door showed how much pleasure senior students played at Tetris during breaks. I wanted to write programs so that people would use my work. I was always good with math, and I knew that I could. ”

Sonia Filippova, Senior QA, St. Petersburg: “My parents are programmers, so the question“ who should I be? ”Did not stand for me. Exact sciences have always been easier for me, and the Russian language has only reached the tenth grade - it was more difficult to decide on a specialty already inside the faculty. At the same time, my sister, on the contrary, is an art critic, and even the multiplication table caused her suffering. ”

Irina Chumakova, Senior Developer, Kiev:“Everything in my family is engineers, my mother is also a programmer. Therefore, the question was: if not an engineer, then who should be? At the same time, my mother worked all her life at the factory, where management was still Soviet, completely sharing the principle of “chicken is not a bird, a woman is not a man”. That is, of course, she faced gender issues. There were much fewer men at her job, but they became bosses quickly if they didn’t leave earlier. But my mother never dissuaded me, my father supported me, and besides, I also have an older sister who also became a programmer. ”

Alena Yakunina, Senior Developer, Kiev:“It happened by chance: there were no engineers in my family. When it was necessary to make a choice, we gathered together as a family and actually went on the contrary. I can’t say that the humanities were hard for me, but my soul didn’t lie with them, and with mathematics everything was fine. In addition, the last class I had had a bias in mathematics and computer science, although I can’t say that I learned so much there. But my mother, apparently, foresaw a technological breakthrough and advised me to try myself in this direction. At the same time, she warned that men predominate in this profession, and I will have to prove my ability to do programming. But, to be honest, I didn’t think about it at that time. It seemed to me that in any case it would be necessary to prove that I was worth something - it doesn’t matter to men or women, and in what area. ”

- How many girls studied with you at the institute? Have all your classmates become engineers?

E. Sh.: - There were three girls in our group of 15 people. There was more on the stream, yes - it seems, about 18 out of 45. From my group I went to work as a programmer, another girl became a “computer specialist” in a small enterprise and now works as a system administrator. The third is unsuccessfully making a scientific career in the field of applied mathematics. Everyone, except work, has families and children. If we talk about the whole stream, about half are engaged in one way or another in engineering specialties, the rest found themselves somewhere else.

S. F.:- There were quite a lot of girls in the physical education class, but for many it was noticeably more difficult. It was hard for anyone then - they became good architects, ichthyologists, economists, well, and managers of anything. It was easy for anyone — they either chose the exact sciences or were so good at everything that they chose literary criticism out of harm. There were many classmates, probably even 50/50 with the boys. All received diplomas. Someone chose the humanitarian path (and increases eyelashes for pleasure), someone got a degree, but most of it is somewhere in the middle between sitting in a research institute and testing software. I want to note separately that with the guys - exactly the same thing.

I. Ch.:- We had a lot of girls. First a third, after the third year and dropouts - already half. Then the groups were combined, but all the same, about 40 percent were girls. Although many from the very beginning understood that they would not work as programmers. Very few people went from our group to IT, and they were mostly reluctant. By profession, only those who liked to study and who started working while still a student continued to work. In fairness, the same thing happened with the guys. Probably, in 2006, it seemed to them that our profession was not so promising.

AND I.:- Now, of course, there are much more girls in engineering specialties - and this is good. During our studies, the percentage of women was hardly more than twenty. But after graduation, almost all remained working in IT, although, of course, not all became programmers. Someone went to testers, someone went to business analytics, but I was not the only one who started as a programmer.

- Did you encounter prejudices against female engineers during your studies?

E. Sh .:- Oh ... During study, no rather than yes. There was one obvious case when a graduate student conducting a practice doubted that I had done the task without any help, but somehow quickly reversed, realizing that I had frozen stupidity. In LETI, many important subjects were very well conducted by female teachers, and somehow in general in the student community this question did not arise.

S. F .: - Some teachers treat girls condescendingly, and classmates are more willing to help and are ready to do something for you, patiently explain several times, give write-offs, and decide on the exam. Female teachers sometimes look unfriendly, they say, give up that you torment everyone. But that's another story.

I. Ch.:- At the university, I did not encounter any prejudice. True, it was much easier for me to learn, because my older sister was an excellent student, and I myself pulled. In addition, another girl studied with me in the group, whose older sister studied just with mine. And since my classmate studied noticeably worse than her sister, they contrasted me very positively. But, to be honest, it was easy for me to learn, I always understood and did everything on time. True, I was considered a careerist - maybe some teachers made some dubious remarks about girls in IT, but not to me.

- Do you have to deal with prejudices and stereotypes?

E. Sh .:- When I graduated from the institute in 2002, there was, of course, a lot of things. The industry was very young, there was a persistent prejudice in society that girls, in principle, were not able to master the computer (just look at the ads of that time), I had to prove that you were “not a girl, but a programmer” ... I don’t know if there have been qualitative shifts in the public mind, or I myself put it this way, but after five years I stopped to notice the influence of all these stereotypes on myself.

S. F.:- I have no negative experience, but I know that often women engineers are treated like secretaries: whoever is a girl will write down the minutes; or here the employer intentionally sends the girl on the farthest and uncomfortable business trip, because men refuse to go there; Sometimes I hear quotes from my colleagues about a blonde in a deployment chat, etc. I can understand where my legs grow from, but it’s still strange, just as it’s strange to be a chauvinist in the 21st century, well, hello! Of course, it’s easier to assume that stupidity is sex-dependent.

I. Ch.:- It was at the level of individuals, in no case at the level of corporate policy. But if suspicions crept in, and I jokingly asked someone: “Maybe he doesn’t like working with girls at all?”, Sometimes it turned out that I was not the first to encounter the hostile attitude of a certain colleague. I must say that such a situation arose even here in DataArt, and during some difficult working moments. But I always try to be careful and do not rush to blame anyone for sexist prejudice.

At my last job, for a very long time I was the only female programmer, although the girls came for interviews. But I myself interviewed some, and I must say that they were objectively weaker. There, the guys could afford to say: “So this is a girl!” And to my question about how then to be with me, to answer that I am simply an exception to the rule. To be honest, jokes on this subject are unpleasant to me. Boys make mistakes no less than girls.

AND I.:“I'm trying to answer this question myself.” I was recently invited to tell girls, just starting their journey in IT, about the start of a career, and this topic in the conversation, of course, sounded. And although I myself have repeatedly heard that it’s hard for some of the women to work, someone has even been squeezed out of projects, I have never had to deal with this. There were laughs and jokes, but I never paid much attention to them. And not a single colleague has ever accused me of being more important than male programmers.

- Does the attitude to female engineers differ in different companies?

E. Sh.: - Yes. DataArt is different, rather, for the better. Here I have not come across any prejudices about the subject of my gender. Well, I came here, of course, already with a certain experience and track record, and that was in 2007.

I. Ch.: - DataArt is different from other companies - there are much more female programmers here than in most other companies. But even now, the probability of two girls-programmers crossing on one project is very low. And I would like to have more. At the level where I am now, that is, at the level of engineer and manager of the first level, it seems to me that women and in other companies do not annoy anyone. Perhaps with further advancement in some companies, you may encounter resistance. Especially where protestation is developed, a particular man can be promoted faster. But in general, I think that we need to fight for our rights not within the IT framework, but rather within our society. Just in IT it is much easier to do.

AND I.:- Unfortunately or fortunately, I did not work in such a large number of companies, and I can’t make a statistical sample. But I can say that in the company where I worked before DataArt, technical experts in 90% of possible cases took girls to work - there were even more female programmers than guys. Perhaps he thought the girls were more assiduous. But in general, I think that in any progressive company you can feel quite comfortable.

- Now in DataArt production about 30% of girls. What needs to be done to have more female engineers?

E. Sh .:- Do you need to do something special? Probably just worth a closer look at our videos that we publish on the domestic labor market. I remember somewhere from a year ago something slipped through, which seemed to me blatantly sexist, but now I don’t remember the details.

Again, both women and men are more suitable and less suitable for a particular job. As a delivery manager, I would not introduce quotas for a specific gender, nationality or sexual orientation, but would look primarily at what talents we want to attract to solve our business problems.

S. F.: - And why? If you need to attract girls because getting a salary in IT is more pleasant than a teacher’s salary, let’s, of course. If the question is only in percent, then let people do what they want.

I periodically read articles and hear comments (mainly from Americans) that, literally, girls are taught at school that mathematics is not for them or that they don’t know that there are technical specialties, or even dare not dream of them. Then yes, the more Girls Who Code will be, the more people will explain to girls that anyone can code, the more often Microsoft will do Youtube-courses for girls on a pink (I LOVE) background with the theme “Make your first mobile application for WinPhone”, all the better! It’s still difficult for me to apply myself to the last example, because I didn’t pass math in 9th grade in Russian schools - that's all for now!

I. Ch.:- I think that here you need to look at the structure of production. We have a lot of girls who go to management and QA, but few go to software engineers. This is probably due to the fact that you can come to testing and management later from other specialties. And linguistic skills there are often no less important than technical skills. The second point is interest and desire. I became interested in programming even in my early teens - in our school classes began at the age of ten. Perhaps for many girls, say, at the age of 16, this would not seem so interesting, even if they know the math well. In addition, soft skills are very important in management, which women have probably traditionally developed. However, perhaps this is also a prejudice, only on the other hand!

AND I.:- Trying to fictitiously increase the number of women in IT is pointless. You can observe the situation and try to influence it only at your local level. Subjectively, it seems to me that the roots of the problem lie much deeper. And to tell all parents that they raised their daughters so that they were ready to succeed in any profession will be very difficult. In the work, the percentage of adequate people is much more important than the percentage of men and women.

- Do women in IT need to fight for their rights?

E. Sh .:- It seems to me that the problem is wider than IT. Separately, in IT - no, it is not necessary, in society - yes, it is necessary. For example, I am faced with a situation where a girl, not even asking about her personal plans, is afraid to take a key position, because "she’s married recently, she’ll suddenly go on maternity leave." Or "she is a girl, let's send someone else to talk to that difficult client."

The correct answer is in the first case: ask her directly already. Man is an adult and clearly understands what he wants. If the truth pauses on maternity leave, and it warns in advance, and we will do everything smoothly, so that the project will not suffer, but only win. In the second case, one must still look not at the floor, but at her ability to conduct difficult negotiations and hold the blow. Such things do not depend on gender at all. And again, this is not so much about IT specifically, but about our entire society, which has yet to evolve before the adoption of a new “inter-gender” contract. Only 150 years work on this

Returning to IT, I, frankly, against communities like women in tech, because I do not quite understand what message they want to convey to others. What women need some special treatment? No, professionals do not need a special attitude. My vision of an ideal situation is absolutely the same as what gender the employee is when managers assemble a project team. There are more important aspects, such as technical and soft skills.

S. F.: - Everyone must fight for their rights!

I. Ch.:“Our customers who share the values ​​of modern Western culture do not care who commits the code or with whom they sign contracts. It is important for them that the work be done efficiently and on time. Focusing on this, it is easier for women in our region to assert their rights. After all, being an IT sexist is not fashionable, in my opinion. And if you call one of our colleagues with this unpleasant word, he, I think, will be offended much more than a man working in another field.

AND I.:- It seems to me that the struggle alone does not lead to anything good. Therefore, I do not think that it is necessary to create some kind of separate movement of women in IT - because it turns out that they would have to fight with male colleagues. Another thing is that at the initial stage, some community of girls-programmers could help their inexperienced colleagues, who sometimes feel not quite confident. Probably, it also happens that women seek to justify a specific failure with the sexism of their colleagues. Although in fact, in the next project everything can be normal - maybe people just did not agree on the characters. After all, no average people actually exist - each has its own characteristics. The main thing, in the end, everything rests on personal qualities, and not on gender differences.